The Diversity Leaders were identified in an independent, online survey from a sample of 100,000 employees across 16 countries within Europe. Participants were asked to rate their employer's promotion of diversity on a scale from 0 to 10. They were also asked to give their opinion on statements related to age, gender, equality, ethnicity, disability, and sexual orientation using a 5-point scale. The opinions of women, elders, and ethnic minorities were given more weight to ensure diverse perspectives were taken into account.

The survey resulted in over 300,000 evaluations that formed the basis to identify the Diversity Leaders. The employee surveys account for 70% of a company's final score, with the remaining 30% coming from objective indicators such as the share of women in management positions, communication in favour of diversity, and a diversity score calculated by data provider Denominator.

At NN, we strive towards creating a warm culture in which we embrace and support our colleagues. Together we build an environment in which our people feel welcome, valued, and respected. Read more about our D&I approach: NN Group - Diversity and Inclusion

Read the article to learn more about the ranking and methodology.

This year, we organised a number of initiatives of support during Rotterdam Pride. NN commissioned Laxmi Manuela to create a painting that paid tribute to the freedom and emancipation of love. Further, Laxmi shared her coming out story with her friends, family and the public in attendance. ‘It feels great to share my story during Rotterdam Pride 2023 to support others who are questioning their sexuality. Growing up, I did not have a role model so by telling my story I hope to help people who feel they do not have someone to look up to’ the artist said.

We strongly believe that diversity is about including everyone. To mark this sentiment there also was a blank canvas at Rotterdam Pride so that people were able to express themselves by writing a personal story to inspire others and give support to one another.

Not only were colleagues from the Netherlands invited to Rotterdam Pride, the invitation was also extended to international business units. As part of our collective efforts, NN covered all travel expenses for who joined Rotterdam Pride from Belgium, Japan, Spain, Hungary, Poland, the Czech Republic, Greece, Romania, Slovakia and Turkey. As a company, we believe it’s important to celebrate the LGBTQIA+ emancipation, equality and acceptance and all our colleagues should be given this opportunity.

At NN, we believe every colleague, customer and stakeholder brings a set of unique talents and perspectives to the table. We embrace this and cultivate a work environment where everybody feels valued. We include all our colleagues, no matter their background, identity, sexual orientation, religion, ability, and cognitive diversity. Our partnership with Rotterdam Pride is one of the ways in which we reflect our ambitions in this area. Read more about NN's approach to diversity and inclusion here.

Photography by Daniel Verkijk

In 2023, NN's scores for inclusive culture (90.32%) as well as our approach in addressing equal pay and the gender pay parity (88.24%) fall into the top percentile, underpinning the significance of our company values. Furthermore, our female leadership and talent pipeline score rose to 52.78% from 36.11%.

Dailah Nihot, member of the NN Group Management Board: ‘We are pleased to be included in the index for the fifth time in a row, with a higher overall score than in 2022. This reflects NN’s ongoing efforts in ensuring equal pay for equal work, and creating an environment where colleagues feel safe, valued and respected. We will continue on this path and foster an inclusive workplace with equal opportunities for all.’

Equal pay 

NN Group’s pay is analysed annually for all business units with a focus on gender equality. Our 2022 analysis shows men and women in the same job family and compensation grade, with similar year of experience and age, receive equal pay. The NN Group gender pay gap of 29%, mainly caused by women being overrepresented in low pay grades and underrepresented in higher pay grades, is continuing on a downward trend.

Continuous improvements 

NN remains committed to addressing the gender pay gap and will take actions to ensure equal pay for equal work. This includes additional focus on balanced candidate pipelines, talent development, succession planning and appointments for senior management positions. To further improve and strengthen the impact of our gender diversity ambition, NN has set a target to have at least 40% women in senior management positions by 2025.

Read more about NN's approach to diversity and inclusion here

About the Bloomberg Gender Equality Index 

The Bloomberg Gender Equality Index includes more than 550 companies and tracks their performance across five pillars: leadership and talent pipeline, equal pay and gender pay parity, inclusive culture, anti-sexual harassment policies, and external brand.  More information.

Today, 8 March is International Women’s Day. Gender equality is part of our commitment to diversity and inclusion, in which we aim to build an environment where people feel welcome, valued, and respected. A company where our colleagues can bring their whole selves to work, where an inclusive customer experience is the status quo, and where we contribute to the well-being of our communities.

In January, NN Group was included in the Bloomberg Gender Equality Index for the fourth year in a row. The index tracks the performance of public companies committed to disclosing their efforts to support gender equality. We were also included in am:web’s AM 100 Topvrouwen and our Head of Human Capital Development, Carolien Handlogten was interviewed by SER on new gender equality laws.

Alongside policies and ratings, we are focusing on actionable development of the female talent pool, to help achieve our target of 40% women in senior positions by 2023. Our colleagues raise awareness of the importance of having an inclusive environment and mindset through initiatives across our business units. Today, we put the spotlight on how our NN offices around the world are contributing to female empowerment initiatives.

In the Netherlands, the Women in Leadership Network is a group of senior women from across our Dutch business units that aims to bring attention to gender diversity and inclusion at NN by facilitating dialogue, developing female talent, bringing people together and inspiring them to act. The network has organised a mentoring programme and will facilitate further events in 2022.

Spain’s ‘SHe’ Women Leaders Network was started in 2019, comprising of all women in management positions at NN Spain. The group began with informal quarterly networking meetings and has now expanded to include a broader talent pool, offering a mentorship programme and regular guest speakers.

NN Belgium participates in the ‘Women on Track’ community, an initiative of Women on Boards. The community hosts networking events and workshops to encourage the next generation of board members.

In 2021, NN Slovakia established the WomeNN Club to inspire female colleagues, and has become an ambassador of the Slovakia Diversity Charter: a commitment to maintain and enhance a diverse working environment.

In Poland, the Women’s Network initiative is a collective of over 50 women and men who focus on four themes: inspirational conversations, networking, HR and development, external presence, and volunteering. Participants meet with inspirational and influential leaders, take part in mentoring and peer coaching, and collaborate with various associations and charities.

NN Czech Republic created a development programme for NN women, called ‘Flowing’. Their aim is to provide women with a safe learning environment to share their leadership experiences and knowledge. It has seen significant engagement in cross-functional projects and on LinkedIn, as well as a 20% increase in management or more senior roles held by women.

Read more about NN’s approach to diversity and inclusion.

It was announced that NN Group is included in the 2022 Bloomberg Gender Equality Index (GEI) for the fourth time in a row. The index names international companies that are committed to reporting transparently on gender equality. Topics include female leadership, inclusive culture, pro-women brand and equal pay & gender pay parity, among others.

Dailah Nihot, member of the Management Board NN Group: ‘At NN, we take a stance for diversity, human rights and equal opportunities for all. We are proud to be included in the index for the fourth time in a row. In recent years, we focused our efforts on equal pay, as this is a key component of supporting equal opportunities for women and men. Together, we will continue on our path of building and fostering an inclusive, healthy and safe workplace for all colleagues.’

Gender diversity and equal pay 

NN Group’s pay is analysed annually with a focus on gender equality. Our analysis shows that for the Netherlands, Belgium, and Spain men and women in the same job family and compensation grade, with similar years of experience and age, receive equal pay. For our other business units, we will perform additional deep dives to better understand the local situation, and we will take action where required. An international network of experts from all our businesses has been launched to share learnings and best practices.

Areas of further improvement

Our annual research shows that women are still underrepresented in the higher pay grades and overrepresented in the lower ones. We therefore observe a gender pay gap (average male earnings per hour versus average female earnings per hour) of 32%, which represents where women and men are positioned within the organisation. With an additional focus on talent management and succession planning activities, we intend to address this gap and achieve our objective of having 40% women in senior management positions by 2023.

Local female empowerment initiatives

We raise awareness of the importance of having an inclusive environment and mindset through various initiatives, such as developing unconscious bias training sessions, organising our internal Wo{men}talk series, and supporting our female empowerment networks (in Slovakia, Spain, Belgium, the Netherlands, Poland and Czech Republic).

About the Bloomberg Gender Equality Index

The 2022 Index represents 380 global companies that are committed to transparency in workplace gender reporting. The companies in the index cover 11 sectors and are headquartered across 44 countries and regions. Read more on the Bloomberg website.

NN Group has been a proud partner of TEDxAmsterdamWomen since 2018: a platform that supports people with ‘ideas worth spreading’ and stresses the importance of equality, courage and shaping the future together.

In the run-up to the main event, TedxAmsterdamWomen hosts Talent Night together with NN: a platform for aspiring speakers to take the stage for three minutes and share their game-changing ideas in front of a jury. NN Group Management Board member Dailah Nihot was a jury member at this event.

The winner of the 2021 event was Sophie-Anne Onland, with her talk about how her non-covering prosthetic leg helped her to accept her disability. Sophie will bring her talk to the main TEDxAmsterdamWomen stage in December, and has also won a tailor-made mentorship by NN Group to take the next steps in her life and career.

On her winning talk, Sophie-Anne says: “I believe that we can change the female beauty standard if we shift to showing our differences instead of covering them.”

Dailah Nihot, member of the NN Group Management Board, says: “Congratulations to Sophie-Anne for her impressive and thought-provoking story during Talent Night. We look forward to mentoring Sophie-Anne to help her achieve her goals. Like TEDxamsterdamWomen, at NN we believe in creating an inclusive environment in which people can be who they are, share their talents, and feel welcome, respected and valued.”

The annual TEDxAmsterdamWomen event will take place on Wednesday 1 December 2021 in Amsterdam.

NN is proud to again sponsor Rotterdam Pride, the organiser of Pride events in Rotterdam, as well as a catalyst for impactful change in cultural and sexual diversity the year.

Rotterdam Pride 2021 takes place from 17-26 September with the theme ‘Dare to be you’: a celebration of being yourself.

Due to Covid-19, Rotterdam Pride will look a little different this year. In place of the traditional march, NN and Rotterdam Pride are offering the people of Rotterdam an inclusion flag, handed out by NN volunteers over Pride weekend.

Diversity at NN

At NN, we believe every colleague, customer and stakeholder brings a set of unique talents and perspectives to the table. That is why we want to include all people, no matter their background, identity, sexual orientation, religion, ability, and cognitive diversity. We believe that working together and diversity of thinking leads to better results. It’s not only the right thing to do: it has value for our employees, our customers and our business. Our sponsorship of Rotterdam Pride is one of the ways in which we reflect our ambitions in this area.

Dailah Nihot, member of the Management Board, says: ‘The theme of this year's Rotterdam Pride, dare to be you, aligns well with our approach to diversity and inclusion: embracing everyone. Together we build an environment in which people feel welcome, valued, and respected. A company where our colleagues can bring their whole selves to work. We are delighted to continue our support of the Pride organisation.’

You can read more about NN's approach to diversity in our Diversity & Inclusion Statement.

The Rotterdam Pride Foundation

The Rotterdam Pride Foundation is the organiser of the annual Rotterdam Pride, for the LGBTI+ community. The organisation strives for emancipation and social and legal equality for people within the LGBTI+ community regardless of body colour, body shape or mental/physical health.

Today we celebrate Neurodiversity Pride Day at NN Group. This is a global day dedicated to celebrating neurodiversity and the added value of people who are neurodivergent. We believe that our company is strongest when we embrace the full spectrum of humanity. That is why we want our neurodiverse colleagues to feel safe to express their needs. To start the conversation, we have a Neurodiversity Network, which was founded by Cindy Doff, our Autism Ambassador. We asked Cindy five questions about her role and the network.

How did you start as Autism Ambassador at NN?

Cindy: ‘After my autism diagnosis it took me a lot of time to decide whether I wanted to come out at work. There was no one to reach out to who had dealt with the same doubts. Having gone through this whole process by myself, I decided to become that someone for others. I followed the Autism Ambassador course at Vanuit Autisme Bekeken and thus became Autism Ambassador. In this role I support colleagues, increase awareness and knowledge and strive to remove stigma.

What is the Neurodiversity Network’s role within NN?

Cindy: 'Let me first explain what neurodiversity means. The term neurodiversity encourages us to see autism, ADHD, apraxia, dyslexia, et cetera not as ‘conditions’ but to look at them as variations in brain functioning. It emphasises the qualities and talents associated with them.

I founded the Neurodiversity Network within NN in 2019. It offers a safe space for all neurodiverse colleagues struggling with our work environment, which is built for the neurotypical. We share experiences, but can also support a dialogue with someone's team and/or manager. In addition we offer support to colleagues with neurodiverse family members or friends.’

How has NN supported you in founding the network?

Group HR was supportive from the start. And so was my senior manager. They gave me the opportunity to become a certified Autism Ambassador and to found the network. However, it takes a lot of work to build a network. It hasn’t been easy combining this with my work as a manager. Luckily, I have worked closely together with Monique Pennings, NN’s Global Diversity & Inclusion manager, and her team, since her appointment last year. We now have a sound communication plan and resources and a budget for activities. This enables me to reach more people with the network. And with the network growing and with more people offering support, and initiating and participating in activities, I feel we are now taking great steps.

How have colleagues responded to the call to join the network?

We have had nothing but positive reactions. And not just from neurodiverse colleagues. It turns out we have many allies out there, as well as colleagues with neurodiverse family members or friends. Our new internal social channel Yammer offers a private online space where we can meet and share experiences. 25 colleagues have joined this community since April. The community is growing, and we see it as just the beginning. A few of these colleagues have stood up to expand and further professionalise the network from here together.

What is the network’s ambition?

We have two main ambitions. We aim to support colleagues who live with neurodiversity, and we want to increase awareness and understanding in all others, especially managers and team members of neurodiverse colleagues. Up to now our focus has been on the first, and we aim to take steps in the second this coming year.

May is European Diversity month. A month dedicated to raising awareness of the importance of diversity and inclusion in our workplaces and in our communities. As part of European Diversity Month, we were proud to sign the Dutch Diversity Charter. Dailah Nihot, member of the NN Group Management Board, signed the charter on behalf of NN.

Dailah Nihot: ‘At NN, we are dedicated to diversity & inclusion (D&I) year-round. Our approach to diversity is about embracing everyone. Together we build an environment in which people feel welcome, valued, and respected. A company where our colleagues can bring their whole selves to work, where an inclusive customer experience is the status quo, and where we contribute to the well-being of our communities. We are pleased to be signatories of this charter’.

Alice Odé, coordinator Dutch Diversity Charter: ‘We are happy that listed company NN Group is committed to creating an even more diverse and inclusive workplace where everyone can bring their whole selves to work and has equal opportunities. With over 15.000 colleagues and even more customers, we find this ambitious and it adds value.’

Dutch Diversity Charter

The Diversity Charter is a declaration of intent by employers from the public and the private sector. By signing the charter, a company commits to self-formulated goals to promote and increase diversity and inclusion in the workplace.

The first Diversity Charter was set up by a number of large companies in France in 2014. This charter quickly grew into a movement with nearly 4,000 companies and many social organisations involved. Germany and other countries followed the French initiative. The Netherlands was the 15th country in Europe to have a Diversity Charter.

D&I at NN

We have a number of D&I plans for NN. For example, we are focusing on actionable developments of the female talent pool, to help achieve our target to have 40% women in senior positions by 2023. We have a dedicated recruiter to hire new colleagues with a neuro or physical diversity. And this month we are training our D&I Ambassadors so together we can scale D&I efforts across our company.

It was announced today that NN Group is included in the 2021 Bloomberg Gender Equality Index (GEI). The 2021 Index represents 380 global companies that are committed to transparency in workplace gender reporting. The companies in the index cover 11 sectors, and are headquartered across 44 countries and regions.

The case for fostering an inclusive environment

Each year, the GEI continues to grow as companies recognise the business case for fostering an inclusive environment.

Bloomberg’s chairman Peter T. Grauer states: ‘As companies continue to grapple with the Covid-19 pandemic, the “S” in environmental, social, governance (ESG) data has become more important than ever before. Companies that provide an inclusive environment supporting work-life balance and flexible work arrangements will eventually succeed in retaining a talented workforce and gain a competitive advantage in a business environment that has been significantly altered, possibly forever.’

Diversity at NN

NN Group is committed to a gender balanced workforce across all functions, with specific attention paid towards (senior) management roles. We support initiatives that stimulate an open, insightful dialogue. In 2020 we launched the Wo{men}talk series and we continued to partner with initiatives outside our company, such as TEDxAmsterdamWomen. We also further sharpened our goals: we aim for 50% female candidates in recruitment for management roles, and we focus on 40% women in senior management positions. We continue to strive for further improvement in this area.

Dailah Nihot, member of the Management Board NN Group: 'Diversity is high on our company’s agenda, and this is reflected in the recently launched NN Statement on Diversity and Inclusion. Our approach to diversity is simple. It is about embracing everyone. Together we build an environment in which people feel welcome, valued, and respected. A company where our colleagues can bring their whole selves to work, where an inclusive customer experience is the status quo, and where we contribute to the well-being of our communities.’

The topic of gender pay is also high on the agenda of NN Group. Developments and internal assessments in this area are regularly discussed with our Management Board and our Supervisory Board. NN Group periodically conducts research into gender pay across all business units. This includes equal pay statistical analysis in the Netherlands. During this analysis we found -when comparing similar compensation grades and job profiles- that gender does not influence pay. Certain areas for improvement were also identified. We see for example, that in general female employees are underrepresented in the higher pay grades. Mid 2020 the Management Board announced the objective to have 40% of the senior management positions filled by women by 2023.

In this remarkable year with many changes in the world, we are proud to publish NN’s Statement on Diversity and Inclusion. The statement is a valuable addition to other achievements, such as launching our new career website that underlines the value of a diverse and inclusive workforce. Also this year we launched our NN Pride network and partnered with Rotterdam Pride for the (online) festivities.

At NN, what do we stand for? 

Our approach to diversity is simple. It is about embracing everyone. Together we build an environment in which people feel welcome, valued, and respected. A company where our colleagues can bring their whole selves to work, where an inclusive customer experience is the status quo, and where we contribute to the well-being of our communities.

Why do we invest in Diversity and Inclusion? 

We believe that creating an environment where everyone can do what they do best is simply the right thing to do. For our people, for society, and for our business.

We know that different ideas, perspectives and backgrounds create a stronger and more creative and innovative work environment. This enables us to better understand others and to keep providing products, services, experiences and messages that are relevant for our customers and other stakeholders.

The journey ahead

We want to do more, and we want to do better. Therefore, we take a holistic approach and develop long-term plans that affect measurable and meaningful change.

Our approach is for the whole of our organisation and clustered in three objectives. We want to take part in creating a more equitable society through 1) having an inclusive work environment, 2) creating an inclusive customer experience, and 3) supporting the diverse communities in which we live and work.

Read more in NN's Statement on Diversity and Inclusion.

NN is a proud sponsor of Rotterdam Pride. For this year’s pride event, taking place from 18 to 27 September, NN and Rotterdam Pride are supporting an initiative that will give the city of Rotterdam a burst of colour.

Due to COVID-19, a number of Pride Rotterdam’s usual festivities will not take place this year. That is why NN and Rotterdam Pride are offering the people of Rotterdam an inclusion flag. Together with a number of businesses that will also be flying the flag, they can support Pride in an unprecedented year. NN volunteers will hand out the flags over Pride weekend.

Rotterdam Pride is an impactful changemaker for cultural and sexual diversity. With this year's theme of 'Dare to', Rotterdam Pride wants to encourage the LGBTI+ community to be proud, and to stand up for who they are and who they love.

Diversity at NN

At NN, we want to include all people, no matter their background, identity, sexual orientation, religion, ability, and cognitive diversity. Together we create an environment where people are appreciated and respected for who they are, and where they can grow and reach their full potential. We believe that working together and diversity of thinking leads to better results. It’s not only the right thing to do, it has value for our employees, our customers and our business. Our sponsorship of Rotterdam Pride is one of the ways we reflect our ambitions in this area.

Dailah Nihot, member of the NN Group Management Board: ‘People are at the heart of our company. At NN, everything we do revolves around people and what matters to them. I am convinced that a diverse workforce makes us a stronger company. We are very conscious about creating an inclusive culture; everybody in our company should feel respected and valued for who they are and feel welcome to bring their whole selves to work. Change is a certain factor in our lives, also in the financial sector, and the more diverse our workforce is – providing variety in thought, skills and experience – the better equipped we will be for whatever tomorrow brings.’

The Rotterdam Pride Foundation

The Rotterdam Pride Foundation is the organiser of the annual Rotterdam Pride, for the LGBTI+ community. The organisation strives for emancipation and social and legal equality for people within the LGBTI+ community regardless of body colour, body shape or mental/physical health.

David Knibbe, CEO NN Group, was recently interviewed by Topvrouwen.nl on his approach to diversity, his personal experiences and the targets set by NN at our recent capital Markets Day. Read a translation of the interview

‘A job interview? Be sure to stay on your toes’

From a young age, David Knibbe learned the importance of inclusion and ‘taking part’. Now, as CEO of NN Group, he is setting ambitious diversity targets: women in 40% of senior management positions by 2023. Knibbe talks with Topvrouwen.nl about the benefit of targets, about why financial services providers shouldn’t talk only about money, and about an extremely informative job interview. ‘I seem to have pressed all the wrong buttons.’

‘A bit uncomfortable.’ That’s how NN Group CEO David Knibbe described his feelings when he took to the podium on 10 September 2018 to sign the #Equality 2020 manifesto during the annual Topvrouwen.nl event at the Rijksmuseum . With the press of a button, Finance Minister Wopke Hoekstra was the first to sign the initiative that delivered a powerful contribution to the debate about gender diversity. Then Jolanda Lamse (PwC) and Knibbe (CEO of Nationale-Nederlanden at the time) took their turns signing. Both directors with a keen eye for equal opportunities for the top men and women in the field. ‘As a provider of pensions and insurance policies, you’re at the heart of society and you want the organisation to reflect that. That’s the signal I always wanted to give, to encourage others to get to work on this theme.’

In that sense, Knibbe was keen to take to the podium. But on the other hand, he thought that he needed to be modest, and that is where the discomfort set in. ‘Shortly before then, in 2017, we had started the integration of NN and Delta Lloyd. At the time, we opted to reappoint all our senior management. This enabled us to take a big step forward in the area of diversity. It’s an opportunity that other businesses that are also doing their best to achieve a better male/female balance don’t automatically have.’ Knibbe wanted to be clear about where these results – from 20% women in 2016 to 32% in 2017 – came from, and to show that it wouldn’t be possible to repeat such a feat every year. ‘I’m really happy with the way that we subsequently grew this percentage gradually: in 2019, we were at 36%.’

Behaviour versus targets

Gradual growth is the exact course that Knibbe wants to continue now. During the Capital Markets Day that NN Group held in June, he introduced his strategy for the future. The strategy essentially comes down to sensible, long-term growth – an ambition that is definitely not a blueprint for the financial sector as a whole. ‘We want to be a business that serves all of our stakeholders, and that means not only announcing shareholder targets for growth and capital, but also targets that lead to good customer scores, being a good employer, and social issues such as responsible investment, CO2-neutral goals, donations and commitment from volunteers.’

A target for more women fits seamlessly here. ‘In 2023, we want 40% of our senior management positions to be held by women – we’re talking about the Management Board and the levels just below.’ Knibbe wants to place an immediate caveat to this ambitious figure. ‘Of course, it’s important to announce this kind of ambition, including to your shareholders. But just setting targets is not enough. What you’re focusing on internally, what you’re rewarding and promoting are more important. In America, they say: “what makes you a hero?” Just talking about the result you want certainly doesn’t make you a hero. Your actions and behaviour are much more important.’

A quick fix is the easiest route to applause, but that is not what Knibbe is after. ‘I prefer internal growth in diversity as opposed to recruiting women from outside for senior positions. Developing internal female talent is a more substantial approach, which I believe is more enduring. It’s exciting though: not everyone changes jobs every year, so you sometimes need to appoint people to specific roles. Of course, you want to pick the best candidate for the job every time, irrespective of gender. That’s why it’s also so incredibly important to have a balanced talent pipeline.’

And then there’s the importance that Knibbe attaches to behaviour. ‘At NN Group, the conversation quickly turns to financial performance. That’s part of it, of course. But if you only talk about money, you’re sending the implicit message that that’s the only important issue. That’s why we deliberately focus a lot on other variables, and as a Management Board, we promote the idea that just talking about an ambition is not enough to become more diverse. We actively focus on, and think about, the signals we send. That stems from the underlying belief that achieving diversity – both in terms of gender and in a wider sense – has a positive impact on our organisation’s performance.’

A personal due diligence

Knibbe’s belief in the value and necessity of diversity is closely related to his life. A child of two engineers, both with a degree from Wageningen University, he was born in the Tunisian capital of Tunis. ‘My parents worked in development cooperation. So discussions about wide-ranging societal issues were very normal at the dinner table. We were taught that listening to others was important, and discussed ways to include others. Basically, it’s what we now call “stakeholder management”. I was brought up with the idea that men and women are totally equal – my mother has always worked and my sister is a professor.’

Knibbe has two daughters, and he envisions a society that embraces equality in the same way his family did. His approach to choices about work and home is therefore perhaps slightly different from the average director: Knibbe is very committed to a good work/life balance. ‘Yes, of course. That balance is also important for men. That’s why, long before the introduction of six weeks’ paternity leave this summer, we already had four weeks of paternity leave in our Collective Labour Agreement. That’s how you create the foundations for the equal allocation of caring responsibilities at home. Now that coronavirus has made working from home increasingly normal, I also hope that it will become more normal for employees to make a contribution at home, for childcare and home support for carers.’ He involves his family closely in his career choices. ‘When I was given the opportunity to take on the role of CEO, I really had to think about it carefully. I also wanted my wife and children to be comfortable with my decision.’

Having doubts, not saying ‘yes’ straight away, asking questions and examining whether a tough job can be combined with the other important things in life: for women that’s often normal. Their critical questions, which are often mistaken as a disguised ‘no’, can also be interpreted as a thorough, personal due diligence. Knibbe can identify with that. ‘Well, I really want to be sure that a role suits me and that I’m making the right decision. So far, I haven’t regretted it for a second and I really feel at home here.’ But whether his willingness to undergo ‘self-reflection’ before taking up the role of CEO is a feminine quality? He laughs heartily at the question. ‘I don’t know whether it’s a specifically feminine quality. The fact is that I’m not that bothered about logical next steps in my career. More than anything, I want to do what I enjoy and what is sensible. Furthermore, if you enjoy something, you’re probably also good at it and you have the best chance of succeeding.’

The ‘no’ that became a ‘yes’

Knibbe is open about the fact that intrinsic motivation to have equality at work doesn’t automatically protect you from the pitfalls that await you as you make a business more diverse. In some situations, you just need a bit of ‘help’ to see a candidate’s added value. He talks about a situation he experienced a few years ago when he – also new in a job – had a vacancy for a country manager. A female manager, who had been warmly recommended from several quarters, came in for an interview. ‘In all honesty, initially, I wasn’t terribly impressed by this candidate. The conversation was rather superficial and I rejected her. A colleague responded with: ‘You’re mad, she’s brilliant!’ But as the person responsible for the team, I wanted to be comfortable with my decision, so that didn’t convince me. It turned out that my boss felt the same way after he interviewed her. “If in doubt, don’t do it” is my motto – it was a really tough and important job. So, it remained a no. And I thought that was the end of it.’

But Knibbe’s view changed following an open question from a second colleague. ‘That colleague asked me whether it might be possible that two western men didn’t know how to talk to a woman from Eastern Europe.’ The comment was a bit hurtful and sowed a seed of doubt. ‘She advised me to invite the women for another interview and to ask someone I trusted, but who wouldn’t otherwise be part of the process, to join me. So I rang the woman up. Her response wasn’t very positive, and she basically said that she was no longer interested in the job. She did want to know, however, why I had initially rejected her. I responded by saying that the interview had gotten stuck on generalities, and that I couldn’t understand her vision. I encountered so much resistance through the telephone that I stopped the conversation and said that we needed to continue it face to face. Fortunately, she was willing to fly to the Netherlands again. It turned out that I had initially pressed all the wrong buttons, had not given her enough space, had not established a proper connection. It meant that she hadn’t felt comfortable enough to give her uncensored opinion. It was a brilliant second interview, and I took her on.’ Cheerfully: ‘Of course, I had to convince my boss, too.’

Knibbe learned a lot from that experience: ‘I still find that you need to be on your toes at interviews. I don’t want to generalise, but there’s often a difference between men and women in interview styles.’ Just take the tricky question of listing your strengths and weaknesses. ‘Men often don’t go any further than saying that they are a little bit impatient or they find themselves “perhaps a little too results-oriented.” It’s just nonsense that these are your only weaknesses.’ But then, the women. ‘Yes, they give you a more honest response, but at a certain stage, as the list grows longer and longer, I think: stop! “I haven’t fully developed this quality, this is new to me, I’ll need to catch up…” if you look at the difference through a purely male lens, you run the risk of always choosing a male candidate – after all, they come across as the “more suitable candidate”.’

A little coaching in this area is certainly not a bad idea. Knibbe is now involved with the Espresso link on the Topvrouwen.nl platform. Espresso is a tool that facilitates personal contact between senior women, senior executives and senior regulators. He’s already had four conversations. ‘During my career, I’ve also been able to have lots of conversations with experienced people who have helped me on my way. That had a big impact. I hope that I can offer that kind of help now, I want to give that to others, too.’